The conversation participants
Monika Umpfenbach, 63, lives in a house on the outskirts of Munich with her husband, a retired civil engineer. The two are married for 38 years and have three adult children and three grandchildren. Monika Umpfenbach was middle-aged and was already a mother when she graduated from high school. She has been a naturopath for ten years.
Michele Thevenet, 40, is the daughter of a Cuban and an American and came 19 years ago from New York to Germany, where she first worked as a hairdresser. For seven years she has been happily married to a French photographer in Munich. Today, she works full-time as a make-up artist in film and is currently involved in the film adaptation of the "Desert Flower" by Waris Dirie.
Mascha Glatzeder, 54, came as a 19-year-old with her parents from Dortmund to Munich. The wild Schwabinger time of the late 60s she liked very much, so she got stuck in Bavaria. After a detour as a successful model and free make-up artist, she works today as a wedding photographer: "My dream job!" She lives in Munich with her triplets.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: A study by the Berlin Charité found that women over 40 have the most fun during sex. Can you confirm that?
Michele Thevenet: I just turned 40, maybe you'll ask me next year again. No, seriously: I'm convinced that the feelings of sex change every few years. So far I have always only become more self-confident and relaxed. Every decade has its time. At the moment my husband and I would just love to have a child. You can imagine what it's like working on a child. That just dominates the sex life.
Monika Umpfenbach: In my marriage the love life was actually around 40 best. The children were out of the woods, the house stood, my husband's career was in a dry towel. But I would not say that good sex is a privilege of women over 40. I had a lot of fun at the age of 30 and still have it today at over 60.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: Why is that?
Monika Umpfenbach: Pure predisposition, I would say. Some people need more sex, some less. This has nothing to do with a man or a woman - although many claim that men have a greater urge. If you have a man who prefers playing tennis and cycling instead of spending Sundays in bed, you have to arrange.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: And how do you arrange yourself as an attractive, physically fit woman?
Monika Umpfenbach: Sometimes through what connects you. I know for a fact that it is not meant in person if one feels less like it. And so you get used to the stormy passion a bit off.
Mascha Glatzeder: "No sex" - I have something similar right now. , , I have been in the menopause for two or three years - and suffer a lot from it. Menopause disturbs everything: body sensation and libido. I feel pretty far away from both. No comparison to earlier when I was the beautiful flower power girl.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: But you are. , ,
Monika Umpfenbach:. , , a very attractive woman!
Mascha Glatzeder: Well, unfortunately I do not think so. I just do not get along with aging. The last 20 years have passed so fast. I was just a mother of triplets and lived in a solid partnership - wonderful! Everything became more difficult in the mid 50's. When I look at myself today - the breasts, the stomach, the arms - then I just think: That's not me!
Monika Umpfenbach: Fortunately, I do not have the problem. I have felt good at any age - every birthday I thought: Now begins the best time of my life. I always did a lot of exercise and exercise, also with my husband.
In terms of sex and men's taste: quality over quantity
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: Are you still feeling as sexy as 25?
Monika Umpfenbach: My mother gave me a healthy self-confidence. But sometimes I am a bit sad when my husband does not look right. The good thing about him is: he knows absolutely no jealousy. When I let a devotee down and told afterwards that I was a little sorry for that, because I liked his compliments - my husband said: "You would not have had to give up the walks with him, because I also have my sport "
Mascha Glatzeder: In any case, you have an enviable figure. With me, every gram is fixed. I hardly eat anything, I rarely drink alcohol.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: As an ex-model, the body seems to have top priority. Do you think if you were thinner, would you have better sex?
Mascha Glatzeder: Sure! In the past, I did not even think about what I look like. Then I knew: Everything fits, no matter what position you take. Today I always turn off the light first.
Michele Thevenet: I would also say that you have better sex when you feel comfortable in your body. But this has nothing to do with external characteristics, but goes over your head. Overall, you have to be satisfied with yourself. I already had friends, they were not objectively beautiful at all - but they liked each other. That's why they were so great. In discipline, men are still on. They do not quarrel so terribly.
Mascha Glatzeder: There was also a time in my life when I was extremely eroticized, even though I was as fat as a cow! That was my pregnancy with the triplets.
Monika Umpfenbach: Pregnant, I found the love life also really great. You did not need any contraceptives. And when you're married young, it's always exciting. But believe me, when the menopause is over, you'll be more relaxed - and it all comes back to you.
Mascha Glatzeder: The stupid thing is that sex dominates us, of course, even if we do not have it. Or maybe because we do not have it. The newspapers, our time is full of it. And I always had sex in my youth. I used men like Tempo.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: So quantity before quality?
Mascha Glatzeder: Something like that. That was because my first time was so terrible. I was 17. And thought, at that age I would have to be deflowered long ago. That's when I caught a guy in the disco. But it wasn't nice with him, on the contrary: That made me frigid. Then I wanted to know it and slept with another almost every night. I did not feel anything anymore, not even during foreplay. It took me until I knew what I really wanted and need. In the meantime, I've told everyone from the beginning: sex is not more than sex. And I disappeared. That's what made the men crazy.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: After your messed-up first time, you've done exactly what you would expect men to say today: loved without expectations and deeper feelings.
Mascha Glatzeder: Yes, the funny thing is that many of the men I know today find it very appealing to sleep with the same woman for a very long time. But that I know almost no woman who can endure with the one in the long run. There's something about it. , ,
Monika Umpfenbach:. , , I would not generalize that. If you are happy in your marriage, why risk it by jumping?
Michele Thevenet: I've had a couple of infidelities in previous relationships and must absolutely agree with Monika Umpfenbach: they do not make a relationship better. You can probably fantasize about a stranger standing next to you in the subway. But cheating adds nothing negative to the partnership - which is far worse than. , ,
Monika Umpfenbach:. , , the fact that after 38 years of marriage you are no longer so electrified!
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: The couple therapist Michael Mary says yes, it is an illusion to believe that one can live both the love of partnership as well as the passionate desire permanently with only one person.
Monika Umpfenbach: I would not say that too much again. For example, I still have a lot of desire today despite our long marriage.
Michele Thevenet: I'm not that romantic. Marriage is not a natural institution, and unfortunately most people are not monogamous. But I think the idea of lasting love for a very beautiful idea and would like to create the same with my husband. No idea if it works. One must never stop striving for the other. Everything else is open.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: You look very realistic, Michele. Following the motto: Do not expect too much from love! Maybe that's the first moment in this conversation, where your age difference is noticeable.
Monika Umpfenbach: I thought about that shortly before. Funny that I am only ten years older than Ms. Glatzeder - and have experienced so much different. But I'm from a Swabian town, from a Catholic home. Since you went as a virgin in the marriage. I felt bad when my teenage friend deflowered me after seven years.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: How old were you then?
Monika Umpfenbach: 24! That's almost embarrassing for me, in front of Mascha Glatzeder. I've never been a cool sixty-eight like you. However, I do not think that I missed anything. If I had slept with 24 men before, that would not have made me any happier.
Mascha Glatzeder: Yes, I already have the feeling that I have not experienced enough. Although later I also realized that only love and feelings make the sex really nice.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: How did you come to this insight?
Mascha Glatzeder: We were totally crazy back then. Until mid-20 I still had affairs in parallel with my respective "relationship".Until I finally had a very loving friend who suddenly asked me: why do you still have to have this confirmation from the outside? Since it has clicked on me. Since then, my motto is: as long as I love a man, I am faithful to him. Even George Clooney could come here.
Michele Thevenet: I have always been like that. Maybe it's the sign of the fish - but if I love, it's intense and long. I never had a one-night stand and I do not want to have one. For that I am still close friends with many of my ex-friends today.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: Does sex make women even more fun today because they've become increasingly independent over the last few decades and no longer need to look for a provider?
Monika Umpfenbach: With my husband, the sex was actually almost fun from the first moment, in love, as I was. He was sort of my second husband after my boyhood friend. On my third day in Munich, I met him with friends. He wore an ancient jacket - and then he gave me daisies.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: Sounds really not solvent solvent!
Monika Umpfenbach: Yes, later he took good care of us. But that was never my main criterion. And I certainly did not think about sex!
Mascha Glatzeder: It may be that other women do that - but I do not know anything like that either. My generation wanted to be emancipated, so right from the beginning I was anxious that I would never become financially dependent on a man. And as a model I really deserve very well!
Michele Thevenet: We girls from the big American city were self-employed very early: I grew up in Miami and New York - at the age of 12, they went to a state institution called "Planned Parenthood" and got the pill immediately. That has given our generation many freedoms. I had my first sexual experiences long before I could have looked for a "provider".
Mascha Glatzeder: I also know today that independence and self-determined sexuality are far from the same thing. You can lead an independent life, but totally dependent on sex.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: Was that the case with you?
Mascha Glatzeder: In my wild time, I mainly wanted to prove what a cool hippie I was! It was also a bit like sport - with which I joined - although sometimes I almost stood next to me. Meanwhile, I am glad that my children see things differently today. They say they only want to go to bed with a partner they love.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: So the opposite of her mother! They have a profoundly romantic view of physical love. , ,
I later represented these views myself! On the other hand, I mean that all my preliminary studies and adventures with all their ups and downs - that was quite justified.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: Did Women Relationships Include Them?
Mascha Glatzeder: If I can touch my own body, why should not I fi nd and touch another woman nicely? There is always a kind of love in important women's relationships. Once I slept with a friend after we knew each other for half a year. It always cracked, but we were both afraid of breaking the friendship. Eventually it happened - and we are good friends until today.
Michele Thevenet: Can I understand. For me same-sex experiences also belong to the sexual maturing. As a result, you get to know yourself better.
Monika Umpfenbach: For me unimaginable! I have a girlfriend that I like very much. But sex? So no!
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: How important is sex for you today? Or to put it another way: what are your most important insights?
Monika Umpfenbach: I tell you: There are more important things in life than sex. What we have built everything together! The kids, the house, the trips and now the grandchildren - that's great! And my husband still likes me best today!
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: And you, Michele?
Michele Thevenet: In recent years, I've learned to listen more to my body. Until just before 30, I worked a lot as a scene hairdresser. Because of an immunodeficiency I suddenly got a paralysis. It lasted only a few days, but forced me to deal with the signals of my body. Since then, my attitude to sex has changed. I pay much more attention to the little things, smell for example. So I have become much more sensual and sensitive.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: So for women, sex gets better with the years?
Mascha Glatzeder: Yes, because female sexuality is also complex. You have to get to know each other first. Unlike men, every woman reacts differently in bed. To understand this, I imagine very difficult for a young man: one likes that. The other hates it. One may be touched on the breast, the other not, one may be kissed everywhere, the next not.
Monika Umpfenbach: The poor guys. , ,
Mascha Glatzeder: If a man is in the mood, he wants to fuck.For me, but also the atmosphere must be right, warmth, candle. And among us: A bed is the best place for this Gesamtkunstwerk.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: How is it today - do you still have One-Night-Stands?
Mascha Glatzeder: So spontaneous? No. From a certain age, unfortunately no man looks at you. With me, this really went from one day to the next - suddenly I was not whistled after. Then I knew: Now you have become older. Even in the pubs my friends and I are no longer addressed.
ChroniquesDuVasteMonde WOMAN: Can that be the time that has become prudery today?
Monika Umpfenbach: Certainly, the threat of AIDS can not be denied anymore.
Mascha Glatzeder: Well, when my son comes out of the disco - and he's really pretty - I sometimes ask him: "And, have you had ten girls on your cheek again?" But he has never met a girl in the disco. Not his friends either. It used to be different.
Monika Umpfenbach: Funny, when I go to dance, I'm often approached. Because I just love to dance.
Michele Thevenet: It has everything to do with the head and the self-confidence. When you feel good, the charisma also grows. No matter how old you are.
Monika Umpfenbach: You have to go dancing, Masha, and do not think so negatively. Recently, I heard a woman on the radio say she had her best orgasm at the age of 66. Hey, we are not that old yet!